23 Q. BY MS. MARSHALL: And your name is? 24 A.. 25 Q. Okay. Were you employed by NDT or NorthWest 158 1 Direct approximately 2001 to approximately 2 December 9th of 2003? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And you worked with Mr. Zweizig; is that 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. I'm going to kind of jump around because 8 we're all eager to get out of here. 9 A. All right. 10 Q. I want to ask you about timesheets. Did you 11 ever have a problem with timesheets? 12 A. I always had a problem with timesheets. I 13 didn't do them well. 14 Q. And what was Mr. Zweizig's position with respect 15 to timesheets and you? 16 A. He told me to do my timesheets. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. And I just kept on failing to do them. I would 19 do them for a while but then, you know, business 20 would creep up and aid forget to. 21 Q. We're lawyers. We know how that is. Okay. At 22 some point you became aware that Mr. Zweizig had 23 been terminated; is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Now, it's been a while. So I'll just Page 1
159 1 tell you that his last day with the company was 2 November 14, 2003. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. Did you become aware that he was going to be 5 terminated before that date? 6 A. I think yes, I was called to a meeting and I was 7 told that he was going to be fired or let go. 8 Q. Okay. And do you remember exactly when that 9 meeting was or can you just -- 10 A. I couldn't tell you exactly when that meeting 11 was. 12 Q. Can you say a couple of weeks or whatever? 13 A. My guess would probably be a couple of weeks 14 prior to him being let go, but yeah. 15 Q. Okay. In this meeting, where was the meeting, 16 by the way? 17 A. At Tim Rote's house. 18 Q. Okay. And was there anybody there other than 19 Mr. Rote? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he tell you that you would be replacing 22 Mr. Zweizig? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And how did you feel about that? 25 A. I mean, it felt good that I would be, I mean, I 160 Page 2
1 would be going up in the position. But at the 2 same time it was a logical choice, I think, for 3 me to take over the position. So I wasn't 4 surprised. 5 Q. Sure. Okay. At that point who all was in the 6 IT department? 7 A. Our IT department was pretty small. It was just 8 Max and I. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. And, no wait a minute. There was another 11 fellow, I think he came on recently. I don't 12 remember his name. So there was three of us at 13 a time. But 95 percent of the time I worked 14 there it was just Max and I. 15 Q. All right. 16 A. I would say. 17 Q. At some point between the time that you learned 18 that you would be taking over Mr. Zweizig's 19 tasks and when he left, you actually gave notice 20 that you would be leaving the company? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Is that correct? 23 A. That is true. 24 Q. Was that a voluntary resignation? 25 A. Yes, it was. I was just looking to go into 161 1 something different. Dot net programming was 2 just coming out and that was a new thing and I 3 felt that would be a great career path me and I Page 3
4 had an opportunity to take it, so I did. 5 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Zweizig have anything to do with 6 your decision to leave? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know a fellow by the name of Joe Cioffi? 9 A. He e-mailed me a couple times after I left 10 NorthWest Direct. 11 Q. Was he employed there while you were there? 12 A. I don't believe so, no. No. 13 Q. So if Mr. Zweizig, if his last day was 14 November 14th and your last day was 15 December 9th, you were the guy for approximately 16 three weeks; is that correct? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Remember that? 19 A. I, that would be safe to assume, yes. Yeah. I 20 mean, you would think -- Yeah, I was. I was the 21 man between, for that three weeks. 22 Q. So you should be able to tell us whether the 23 company ever shut down after Max left while you 24 were there because of anything that he did or 25 didn't do. 162 1 A. No. The company never shut down. 2 Q. Do you remember anyone ever coming to you and 3 asking you to find any programs that Mr. Zweizig 4 had written or used? 5 A. No, I don't remember. 6 Q. Okay. Page 4
7 A. Being, specifically being asked to do that. But 8 then again, I mean, looking for programs on a 9 server every day and stuff like that would have 10 been something that I did. 11 Q. Okay. Well, during the period where you were 12 the only IT guy? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Or you and perhaps one other person, do you 15 remember there being any angst or sense of 16 urgency to search for Mr. Zweizig's programs? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Q. Okay. If you had been asked to look for 19 Mr. Zweizig's programs, the ones that he wrote, 20 where would you look? 21 A. The programs would exist on the EIS server. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And there would be a Windows 98 computer that 24 had a directory with all of Max's programs in 25 it. 163 1 Q. Okay. Did you personally ever have occasion to 2 access those programs? 3 A. Did I? 4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the programs. 7 Were these Fox Pro programs? 8 A. They were Fox Pro programs, simple programs that 9 just did, the EIS programs usually did reports. Page 5
10 He had a couple programs that would extract data 11 for processing and you'd probably have a few 12 Windows appears that would pull data from the IS 13 server over, either create a report right there 14 for them or produce processing data for our 15 clients. 16 Q. Okay. Now, how would you, how would you 17 characterize these reports? Were these kind of 18 stock reports that would apply over a broad 19 variety of situations or how would you 20 characterize them? 21 A. Usually each program was designed for each 22 campaign. And the campaign would evolve based 23 on Bret's needs or the client's needs. So they 24 would always be changing based on a different 25 campaign. And you would adjust them accordingly 164 1 to what they wanted. Same thing with 2 processing, probably less, to a lesser extent 3 than the reports. 4 Q. Okay. Now, your, you were primarily responsible 5 for scripting, for programming and scripting; is 6 that correct? 7 A. Scripting was mainly mine, yeah. 8 Q. Okay. Did, prior to you leaving did you have 9 occasion to train anybody in preparing scripts? 10 A. I think I started training Rory, but he wouldn't 11 have been qualified to do much by the time I 12 left. Page 6
13 Q. Okay. And so you were handling both yours and 14 Max's job and you were training Rory. Were you 15 training anybody else? 16 A. No. Well, there was another, there was that 17 other IT guy, I forget what his name was, and he 18 was doing work as well. And I believe he was 19 learning scripting as well, too. But, I mean, 20 daily business, I didn't do a lot of training, 21 no. 22 Q. Yeah. What can you tell us about the IT 23 department once you were gone? 24 A. Once I was gone, the IT staff was pretty slim. 25 They wouldn't need to be replaced right away. I 165 1 mean, there was only three of us at the time. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Came down to one. 4 Q. I'd like to have you look at Exhibit 128, pages 5 one and two. Can you tell me where that is. It 6 might be over here. Just make sure it is. 7 MR. MARSHALL: You keep taking them away 8 from me. 9 MS. MARSHALL: Sorry. It's my fault. 10 Q. BY MS. MARSHALL: Well, I'll let him look for 11 that and I'll ask you another question. 12 Mr. Crow, do you have Exhibit 128? 13 ARBITRATOR CROW: Yeah, I do. 14 MS. MARSHALL: Would you mind sharing it 15 with the witness because I only have about three Page 7
16 questions left. 17 MR. MARSHALL: Here it is. 18 Q. BY MS. MARSHALL: All right. Exhibit 128, 19 there's been some testimony about this and 20 basically some questions about what page 1 and 21 two are. Can you just explain it for us what 22 page 1 and two is. 23 A. All right. So the password to Max... We pass 24 passwords around via e-mail quite often because 25 they weren't written down and, in a specific 166 1 location. It's probably best that they weren't. 2 So if you forgot a password or a new machine 3 came on line or we changed a password or you 4 haven't been on a certain machine in a long 5 time, I would e-mail Max and ask him for 6 passwords. He would probably e-mail me and ask 7 me for passwords. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And that's all that is basically. 10 Q. Were you the keeper of the passwords? 11 A. We didn't have a keeper of the passwords. But, 12 so no. I mean, there's two schools of thoughts 13 on keeping passwords. One is if you keep your 14 password in a file then somebody steals it and 15 you get all your passwords. The other thing is 16 if you don't keep any passwords, they're secure 17 that way. And that's the way we went because 18 it's the way most companies do go, I think. Page 8
19 Q. Did either of you have access to the 20 administrative server as a practical matter? 21 A. Yeah. We had access to all servers. 22 Q. Okay. Why don't you tell us what the second 23 page is. 24 A. This would be just a spoof that was sent to Max. 25 The subject says, Chris in, I think he wanted me 167 1 to send him an e-mail every morning when I was 2 getting in and of course being smart about it I 3 wrote a program that sent him an e-mail at 8:00 4 in the morning. 5 Q. So it was sort of a joke? 6 A. Yeah. It was kind of a joke, you know. And, 7 that's all that is. 8 Q. Okay. Well, the reason it's come up is that 9 there's some question about whether Mr. Zweizig 10 improperly accessed data in the administrative 11 server before he left. Did you have any 12 awareness of that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. And speaking of passwords, did you do 15 anything to prevent Mr. Zweizig from accessing 16 information after he left? 17 A. Yes. We had a lock-out procedure that Max and I 18 discussed. If any of us was terminated, that we 19 would make sure that was done right away. 20 Q. Okay. And what's that mean, a lock-out 21 procedure? Page 9
22 A. It means you'd go in, you'd go into every single 23 computer, every PC Anywhere, any access like 24 that and you would change the password to 25 something they didn't know so they couldn't log 168 1 in, basically lock them out. 2 Q. Okay. Going back to you going to the 3 administrative server to get Mr. Zweizig's Fox 4 Pro programs. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. If the administrative server happened to be down 7 or crashed or something like that, was there any 8 back up? 9 A. The EIS server is backed up every night on the 10 tape. And the Windows 98 box that held the 11 programs had a batch file that would run on a 12 scheduled job within the machine. It would 13 actually take a folder, it would copy it to the 14 other drive. So the chances of both drives 15 going bad at the same time would be very slim. 16 So you could get the programs back out off the 17 other drive. So yeah, they were backed up. 18 Q. So if you knew what you were looking for, that 19 would be where you'd go to look for them? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Is that right? Okay. Well, let's say you still 22 couldn't find them. You couldn't find 23 Mr. Zweizig's Fox Pro programming on the server 24 and you couldn't find them in the backup tapes. Page 10
25 What would you do then? 169 1 A. If you couldn't find the program at all, you 2 would have to write it from scratch. 3 Q. Would that be a problem? 4 A. No I don't -- No. None of the programs were so 5 extensive that they would take a long time to 6 recreate. Some of the processing programs were 7 more involved, but no, I don't believe so. 8 MS. MARSHALL: Okay. I have no other 9 questions. 10 ARBITRATOR CROW: Mr. Rote. 11 Q. BY MR. ROTE: Back when you tendered your 12 resignation, you noted that you did so for 13 health reasons, that you were stressed and for 14 health reasons. Do you remember that being a 15 stressful time? 16 A. Oh, yeah. 17 Q. Very stressful? 18 A. It was very stressful. 19 Q. Do you remember a gentleman by the name of Jamie 20 Getty from *Teleformix flying out from Chicago 21 and working with us for a period of time? 22 A. Jamie Getty. 23 Q. From Chicago, a company called *Teleformix? 24 A. Jamie Getty. *Teleformix. No, I don't. 25 Q. You don't. 170 Page 11
1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. Okay. Do you remember the other party employee, 3 *Gunowen *Darmatti? 4 A. Is that the one I'm thinking about? Yeah. That 5 one. 6 Q. I think so. I think that's the one you are 7 thinking of? 8 A. That's the other employee that I am missing, 9 *Gunowen. 10 Q. Now you had experience with Visual Basic and 11 database programs like Fox Pro or SQL? 12 A. Server. 13 Q. SQL. And was it your understanding that 14 *Gunowen also had experience with those same 15 kind of things? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. And so essentially there were three people in 18 the department at that time, you, *Gunowen and 19 Max? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And if the company had substantially expanded, 22 let's say increased by 50 percent, would you say 23 that we'd have to add substantially more staff? 24 A. We would. In the IT department? Yeah. 25 Q. In the IT department. 171 1 A. I would, I would think you'd have to add on, Page 12
2 yeah, I think you would. 3 Q. So the fact that we have three people today and 4 we're substantially bigger, would you say that 5 that means that we are much better at database 6 processing, scripting? What would you think 7 that would mean? 8 A. You know, it's tough to say, if you were going 9 to hire -- At the time I guess I was a junior 10 level programmer. I mean, if you were to hire 11 me today I could probably do the work of two or 12 three more people. I think my experience has 13 just grown that much. But back then it felt 14 like, yeah, you would have had to hire more 15 people. 16 Q. The, kind of go back to kind of the stressful 17 time when you decided to resign. Can you kind 18 of describe for us what was causing the stress? 19 A. There was just a lot of stress between Max, you, 20 Brent *Cowiak, it seems like there was always a 21 conspiracy going on. And it was just normal 22 business. And it was hard to deal with that 23 because everybody was working so hard and all it 24 was was just normal business and there was 25 nobody trying to do anything extraordinary or, I 172 1 mean, out of the ordinary, I would say. 2 Q. Would you say that friction was going on for a 3 while? 4 A. Oh, yeah. Page 13
5 Q. It had gone on for quite a while? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. So at the time that you resigned, however, that 8 was after Max's last day. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. It was quite a bit -- And that stress continued 11 to go on if not get greater after his last day. 12 A. (No audible response.) 13 Q. Now, remembering that then state of mind at that 14 time, does it jog your recollection about Jamie 15 Getty from Chicago coming in to help us with a 16 number of matters? 17 A. I'm sorry. I don't remember Jamie Getty. 18 Q. All right. That's fine. You were asked about a 19 meeting that you attended with me when we 20 discussed Max's departure or termination. And, 21 but you don't recall the exact date when that 22 happened, do you? 23 A. Oh, no. 24 Q. No. But it wasn't, would you say it was not the 25 first time that we talked about issues and you 173 1 assuming command of the department? 2 A. No. It probably wouldn't have been the first 3 time, no. 4 Q. We had had other conversations about you 5 assuming the rains of the department. Do you 6 remember the concerns being that we just wanted 7 someone here, on the ground here taking control Page 14
8 of the department, manage being the department? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. As opposed to in New Jersey? 11 A. I remember you saying that. Yeah. 12 MR. ROTE: No more questions. 13 ARBITRATOR CROW: Redirect. 14 MS. MARSHALL: No. No questions. 15 ARBITRATOR CROW: Thank you, Mr. Cox. You 16 are free to leave. 17 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you. 18 MR. ROTE: Thank you, Chris. 19 THE WITNESS: Nice meeting you. 20 MS. MARSHALL: Thank you. 21 ARBITRATOR CROW: And I gather that we have 22 come to the end; is that correct. 23 MS. MARSHALL: As I said, all good things 24 have to come to an end. 25 ARBITRATOR CROW: It's a shame, but I guess 174 Page 15